Mariners Trust View on new stadium

Thank God for the Trust. A lot of sense to be found in the link below.  More progress has been made than others might think.

http://www.marinerstrust.co.uk/stadium/

Have a read.

Nice positive read , however robust the council have been it does seem to most that they have been dragging their feet .whatever decision is made someone somewhere won't be happy .

That tallies with my thinking on the matter. The council are obviously tempted by the regeneration aspect to the 2 sites added, namely Freemo and the Docks, with the grants available to them for such a scheme. It could be a nice double whammy if it were to happen but it would be a far more complicated and protracted route than the PP one. Either way it sounds promising.

It certainly makes very interesting reading and demonstrates how much is going on in the background that we fans know nothing about. It also questions the assistance that previous Council administrations , especially the LibDems under De Freitas, have given to this project. Maybe , as the statement says , this whole thing could have been sorted out several years ago if the whole idea of a community project had been looked into by the then Council.

I am glad that people find this a positive delvelopment because I am rather struggling here Now, I don't claim to understand these things inside out but what happens if the council's study recommends a site that differs to the recommendation of the club's study (ie not Peaks Parkway)? I can only see that we enter another period of stalemate and the thing spins out for umpteen more years.

And even if the council does recommend PP we still need to secure this 'enabling development' right?

Can the Trust give us some idea when they think we will have a new stadium,

BECAUSE

I can not see it happening any time soon,

We have only been waiting about 20 years after all.

Quoted from rancido

It certainly makes very interesting reading and demonstrates how much is going on in the background that we fans know nothing about. It also questions the assistance that previous Council administrations , especially the LibDems under De Freitas, have given to this project. Maybe , as the statement says , this whole thing could have been sorted out several years ago if the whole idea of a community project had been looked into by the then Council.

I'd bet that the council is more supportive these days because the ordinary fans, through the Trust, have more ownership (literally) and more control of the cub than previously. It makes the whole idea of it being a community club/stadium more credible and therefore more likely to be worthy of support by public bodies.

I would dearly love the Freemo Street location to work for so many reasons: position being just off the A180 and not far from town, good transport links, regeneration of that sorry area (imagine that area in 10/20/30 years' time with little investment *shudders*). However, I'm struggling to envision how it would be feasible and how the site would be big enough for any enabling development (retail/houses) plus community facilities. It does seem that PP is the only viable solution without a framework being put forward for Freemo that would allow people to see beyond the obvious obstacles.

The whole picture changes if we can replace the need for enabling development with funding from councill/government grants, FSIF, fans etc.
This is a great opportunity for the council to act on either Garth Lane or Freemo. Two town centre brownfield sites, and as immariner points out, Freemo desperately needs something. It shouldn't be forgotten also that Garth Lane topped the SLR survey.
Can you imagine the buzz around the town on a matchday at either site? Amazing. It would be a boost for the club during the week too, having the club shop, ticket office, bar, restaurant in a location with greater passing footfall.

For me, I like the Morrisons scheme as you could build and sell houses there, as good a road links as yo get in Grimsby and room for car parks etc. I think. The down side is cost of the land. The GET said there would be complaints from Laceby, but I don't really think that should be a problem.
But at the end of the day I would just like to see a Stadium built somewhere

Quoted from NorthseaMariner

For me, I like the Morrisons scheme as you could build and sell houses there, as good a road links as yo get in Grimsby and room for car parks etc. I think. The down side is cost of the land. The GET said there would be complaints from Laceby, but I don't really think that should be a problem.
But at the end of the day I would just like to see a Stadium built somewhere

Too far out on a limb for my liking. Ok if you are a car owner but not everyone is.

Quoted from ginnywings

Too far out on a limb for my liking. Ok if you are a car owner but not everyone is.

Buses will run from all parts of town I would imagine,

I loved doing football specials in the 70's,

I got to see the game for free  

Quoted from ginnywings

Too far out on a limb for my liking. Ok if you are a car owner but not everyone is.

I know what you mean, but most of the central location don't have the road infrastructure for large crowds. I'm sure the transport problem isn't insurmountable.

Quoted from NorthseaMariner

I know what you mean, but most of the central location don't have the road infrastructure for large crowds. I'm sure the transport problem isn't insurmountable.

Agree 100%.. People talk about the proximity to the A180 which is true but it does nothing for people coming from Scartho Nunsthorpe the villages or Cleethorpes for that matter. The cost of upgrading the road network would be phenomenal.

Just get on with it! Get it built before I die! (and I am only 46)

Quoted from easypeersy

Just get on with it! Get it built before I die! (and I am only 46)

You've got ten years on me.

Sound like some good stuff going on but I still feel that it is some way off.

I have not been to interested as I am not sure where the money is coming from but can't help thinking that if we stopped talking about a "complex" and just about 4 decent stands, a pitch, extra toilets and bars and hospitality boxes things may move quicker.

We have the ambition throughout the administration all we actually need is a joint venture partner with a few quid and a bit of clout.  

    

Quoted from ginnywings

You've got ten years on me.

And thirty on me

Freeman Street would be fantastic. Iconic, in the heart of the Town, and providing much needed regeneration to that area - why not kill two birds with one stone.

Do we have to build new stadiums with car drivers as the number 1 priority all the time?

I think Freeman Street/The Docks is the best option. The latter because we could call the stadium "Docklands" or "The Fish Dock 5 Football Ground" which greatly amuse me in my Sunday boredom today.

Why I like these to ideas are because they will;

a) hopefully help regenerate the area. Builders working on the ground, the eventual match goers and then the alleged day to day use will surely give the pubs, cafes, shops etc around there reason to keep on going and bring other businesses in the area.

b) there are the only sites that are in decent proximity to a train station on foot. Northern Rail could add in a stop at the Docks station on match days so people can get off closer to the ground, for example. Having access via train is important because i) people like going to the match on the train. It makes for a great day out. Not having the option puts some away fans off and we should be building a ground that encourages away fans as much as home fans. ii) it is good for the environment. We should all be encouraging use of public transport in getting to football.

c) it is close to the A180. Ok, access isn't great and when all the traffic coming off the A180 gets there it has nowhere to go which will cause a traffic jam. This will only occur on match days and I challenge anyone to point out a sporting arena which isn't troubled by traffic jams on a match day. It's par for the course.

d) I think stadiums that have been rebuilt centrally to the towns and cities they are based in have been ultimately more successful. People can still walk there, use the pubs and shops around the place they usually do. This is very important for people's match going experience. I also believe a 'community facility' needs to be central too. A community facility is useless on the periphery in Great Coates or Laceby.

Cracking post Paris Mariner. Very good points.

Quoted from Paris Mariner

I think Freeman Street/The Docks is the best option. The latter because we could call the stadium "Docklands" or "The Fish Dock 5 Football Ground" which greatly amuse me in my Sunday boredom today.

Why I like these to ideas are because they will;

a) hopefully help regenerate the area. Builders working on the ground, the eventual match goers and then the alleged day to day use will surely give the pubs, cafes, shops etc around there reason to keep on going and bring other businesses in the area.

b) there are the only sites that are in decent proximity to a train station on foot. Northern Rail could add in a stop at the Docks station on match days so people can get off closer to the ground, for example. Having access via train is important because i) people like going to the match on the train. It makes for a great day out. Not having the option puts some away fans off and we should be building a ground that encourages away fans as much as home fans. ii) it is good for the environment. We should all be encouraging use of public transport in getting to football.

c) it is close to the A180. Ok, access isn't great and when all the traffic coming off the A180 gets there it has nowhere to go which will cause a traffic jam. This will only occur on match days and I challenge anyone to point out a sporting arena which isn't troubled by traffic jams on a match day. It's par for the course.

d) I think stadiums that have been rebuilt centrally to the towns and cities they are based in have been ultimately more successful. People can still walk there, use the pubs and shops around the place they usually do. This is very important for people's match going experience. I also believe a 'community facility' needs to be central too. A community facility is useless on the periphery in Great Coates or Laceby.

As far as I'm aware the only Northern Rail service is the Barton train which I don't think brings that many fans to watch GTFC. I think this rail link approach is overrated as we already have two stations in the area ( Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes ) , the others at Clee and Grimsby Docks are not served by Trans-Pennine and are consequently out of the equation as I cannot see them changing their timetables to accommodate a possible increase in passengers on match days.

Quoted from rancido

As far as I'm aware the only Northern Rail service is the Barton train which I don't think brings that many fans to watch GTFC. I think this rail link approach is overrated as we already have two stations in the area ( Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes ) , the others at Clee and Grimsby Docks are not served by Trans-Pennine and are consequently out of the equation as I cannot see them changing their timetables to accommodate a possible increase in passengers on match days.

Trans-Pennine Express is run by Northern Rail, is it not? I believe it is. My point was that, if the authorities enter into contact with them, I'm sure they'd be open to scheduling a stop around match day time e.g 2 hours before and after kick off, so people can use the service to travel to games.

Quoted from rancido

As far as I'm aware the only Northern Rail service is the Barton train which I don't think brings that many fans to watch GTFC. I think this rail link approach is overrated as we already have two stations in the area ( Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes ) , the others at Clee and Grimsby Docks are not served by Trans-Pennine and are consequently out of the equation as I cannot see them changing their timetables to accommodate a possible increase in passengers on match days.

I don't think they will either. Still, Freeman Street is only 15 minutes walk tops from Grimsby Town station.

Quoted from MarinerWY

I don't think they will either. Still, Freeman Street is only 15 minutes walk tops from Grimsby Town station.

I think you might be surprised. If it was built at the docks it would make sense to in any case. Brighton and Coventry (unsuccessfully) integrated rail travel into their new grounds which shows rail services are willing to adapt.

I take the point about it only being a fifteen minute walk from GY Town on Freemo though.

Quoted from Paris Mariner

Trans-Pennine Express is run by Northern Rail, is it not? I believe it is. My point was that, if the authorities enter into contact with them, I'm sure they'd be open to scheduling a stop around match day time e.g 2 hours before and after kick off, so people can use the service to travel to games.

I'm afraid not. They are two separate companies. One of the issues with Great Coates was that the railway people wanted GTFC to pay for the upgrade to Great Coates stadium-at a prohibitive cost. Grimsby Docks station would need substantial upgrading. No prize for guessing who'd be expected to foot the bill. For me the access to the A180 is a red herring. How many home fans actually use that road to get to B.P. or would use it to get to Freemo? Bus links are a help but like it or not-and I don't drive you will never stop people using their cars. I can only assume you aren't familiar with the chaos around top town/freemo on a Saturday.

Quoted from barralad

I'm afraid not. They are two separate companies. One of the issues with Great Coates was that the railway people wanted GTFC to pay for the upgrade to Great Coates stadium-at a prohibitive cost. Grimsby Docks station would need substantial upgrading. No prize for guessing who'd be expected to foot the bill. For me the access to the A180 is a red herring. How many home fans actually use that road to get to B.P. or would use it to get to Freemo? Bus links are a help but like it or not-and I don't drive you will never stop people using their cars. I can only assume you aren't familiar with the chaos around top town/freemo on a Saturday.

No, I come in from a different direction too but I think when you build a new ground these are obstacles to overcome not stop it getting off the ground. Surely any regeneration project, whether a stadium was included or not, would include these considerations as it is a problem.

If they are separate companies, then of course, I meant Trans-Pennine, but we're quite frankly nit picking there. #biggerpicturelads  

Quoted from Paris Mariner

No, I come in from a different direction too but I think when you build a new ground these are obstacles to overcome not stop it getting off the ground. Surely any regeneration project, whether a stadium was included or not, would include these considerations as it is a problem.

If they are separate companies, then of course, I meant Trans-Pennine, but we're quite frankly nit picking there. #biggerpicturelads  

I would just rather see one built somewhere where the obstacles don't exist to start with. Only Peakes Parkway fits the bill for me

Quoted from barralad

I'm afraid not. They are two separate companies. One of the issues with Great Coates was that the railway people wanted GTFC to pay for the upgrade to Great Coates stadium-at a prohibitive cost. Grimsby Docks station would need substantial upgrading. No prize for guessing who'd be expected to foot the bill. For me the access to the A180 is a red herring. How many home fans actually use that road to get to B.P. or would use it to get to Freemo? Bus links are a help but like it or not-and I don't drive you will never stop people using their cars. I can only assume you aren't familiar with the chaos around top town/freemo on a Saturday.

I don't think it was the station , more a case of the crossing at the station. The thing was that upgrading the crossing was already part of Network Rails future improvement plan and I think they saw the proposed stadium as a means of making the club bear the cost even though they were going to upgrade it anyway.

Quoted from barralad

I would just rather see one built somewhere where the obstacles don't exist to start with. Only Peakes Parkway fits the bill for me

I agree. But then I believed there weren't many obstacles with Great Coates at the time.

Whichever is chosen and finally built,( I still have doubts that I will ever see it )

Can only be better traffic wise than Blundell Park.

Quoted from Trawler

http://www.marinerstrust.co.uk/stadium/

Have a read.

Why is The Trust pushing The Club's preferred option onto its members? This reads to me like The Trust are representing The Club's views to its membership, when it should be the other way around.

The trust have representatives on the GTFC board so presumably they are presenting a consensus to their membership

It should also be "perspective" not "prospective".
Yours,
P. Dant

Quoted from AdamHaddock

The trust have representatives on the GTFC board so presumably they are presenting a consensus to their membership

But it should be the other way around, the Trust board representing the views of its membership.  Asking for votes on the Telegraph site is a tactic previously employed by Fenty, in fact this statement could have come straight from his pen!

What an excellent opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Desperately needed Regeneration and a new stadium all in one if we go for Freemo or Docks

Government funded to boot!

Give me a break, like austerity fetishist Gideon Osborne is going to open up the Government coffers for a fancy new football stadium in a deprived northern town.

You can only get a taxpayer funded stadium if you're his mate (see West Ham / Karren Brady / Olympic Stadium). Fenty's a Conservative - maybe he can pull a few tory party strings?

Quoted from Chrisblor

Give me a break, like austerity fetishist Gideon Osborne is going to open up the Government coffers for a fancy new football stadium in a deprived northern town.

You can only get a taxpayer funded stadium if you're his mate (see West Ham / Karren Brady / Olympic Stadium). Fenty's a Conservative - maybe he can pull a few tory party strings?

I don't think that's the point. That kinda view  ("how to deprive Northern towns") you have, would have been perfect for the Gordon Brown recession era.

A football stadium wouldn't just bring us a new stadium. It would also provide basses for retail brands to open up, which in turn will create more jobs ( Less people on benefits ), more people purchasing products, which = more Tax and Vat for the government and of course, more investment that comes from the retailers. This in turn would mean less funding needed from the government, and from the club.

So yes, it would be a great move.

Quoted from Cod Cheeks

What an excellent opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Desperately needed Regeneration and a new stadium all in one if we go for Freemo or Docks

Government funded to boot!

If you/we/Fenty are prepared to wait for all the red tape, compulsory purchase orders, demolitions etc. Haven't we waited long enough?

Quoted from pizzzza

Why is The Trust pushing The Club's preferred option onto its members? This reads to me like The Trust are representing The Club's views to its membership, when it should be the other way around.

I agree with this. Has the trust consulted it's members on which potential site they prefer and then represented that to the club? In fact, it would be a great idea for the trust to run some kind of consultation of it's members. Certainly before announcing their preference on where the Trust wants that new stadium to be...

Quoted from Grimsby2012

I don't think that's the point. That kinda view  ("how to deprive Northern towns") you have, would have been perfect for the Gordon Brown recession era.

A football stadium wouldn't just bring us a new stadium. It would also provide basses for retail brands to open up, which in turn will create more jobs ( Less people on benefits ), more people purchasing products, which = more Tax and Vat for the government and of course, more investment that comes from the retailers. This in turn would mean less funding needed from the government, and from the club.

So yes, it would be a great move.

I think you've missed my point. I'd be all for the Government subsidising the cost of a new stadium near Freeman Street or Garth Lane which would in turn regenerate a deprived area. My previous post is suggesting there's no way a Conservative Government, currently going hand over fist to reduce government spending, would even begin to consider handing out any money to kick-start such a scheme, even if there is a clear economic case and multiplier effect (as you've mentioned) from doing so.

This is not a Government which is interested about investing to improve deprived areas and reducing the North/South divide. They'd rather get local councils to sign up for 'devolution', which is pretty much just a scheme for the Government to continue cutting funding towards local government while avoiding the flak for doing so. When cash starved local authorities have to cut even more public services, the Government will just say "it's not our fault, the local (usually Labour) council manage the budget so blame them".

Quoted from MuddyWaters

If you/we/Fenty are prepared to wait for all the red tape, compulsory purchase orders, demolitions etc. Haven't we waited long enough?

Yes I think it worth a bit longer to get it right
In my opinion freemo/docks would be best for all of Grimsby all of the time

Quoted from MuddyWaters

If you/we/Fenty are prepared to wait for all the red tape, compulsory purchase orders, demolitions etc. Haven't we waited long enough?

From what has been said in the press, it seems on the face of it that the Council has at last understood a new community type stadium is the ideal thing to reinvigorate a part of the town that is run down.

This is a far cry from the previous ideas that we needed a new stadium because Mr. Fenty didn't want us to stay at BP because he was losing too much money.

If the Council are being truthful, then I see this as a sea change and we can indulge them a few months more, in good faith, for them to make a final decision on which site would be best.

If they choose another site apart from Peaks Parkway I wonder how Mr.Fenty will react? It is vital we have a site that not only ticks all the boxes but that the stadium complex itself will be an iconic part of the town for several generations.

So I would wait a bit longer, yes. It is amazing this day and age how quickly things can move once they have been agreed, but on the other hand I have said many times that I don't think I will see a new stadium but even I am encouraged by the noises coming from the Council.

If we are disappointed again however, then they better get their tin hats on.  

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

From what has been said in the press, it seems on the face of it that the Council has at last understood a new community type stadium is the ideal thing to reinvigorate a part of the town that is run down.

This is a far cry from the previous ideas that we needed a new stadium because Mr. Fenty didn't want us to stay at BP because he was losing too much money.

If the Council are being truthful, then I see this as a sea change and we can indulge them a few months more, in good faith, for them to make a final decision on which site would be best.

If they choose another site apart from Peaks Parkway I wonder how Mr.Fenty will react? It is vital we have a site that not only ticks all the boxes but that the stadium complex itself will be an iconic part of the town for several generations.

So I would wait a bit longer, yes. It is amazing this day and age how quickly things can move once they have been agreed, but on the other hand I have said many times that I don't think I will see a new stadium but even I am encouraged by the noises coming from the Council.

If we are disappointed again however, then they better get their tin hats on.  

Back in the real world, how long do you think it would take to get the CPOs to buy all the properties they would need to demolish on the East Marsh and removals of Listed building statuses etc on the Docks. I'm not known for my support for John Fenty but I'm right behind him on this one. Of course it would be great to re-invigorate depressed areas of the town but let's be a little bit more realistic about what's involved.

Just a thought but when BP was built back whenever , would it have been considered an edge of town development similar to Peaks Parkway is now for us . In other words it probably would become surrounded by housing developments in the next 20 years giving it a more community feel .
I'd love it to be down freemo / docks area but can't see it baring a miracle or two .

Quoted from louth_in_the_south

Just a thought but when BP was built back whenever , would it have been considered an edge of town development similar to Peaks Parkway is now for us . In other words it probably would become surrounded by housing developments in the next 20 years giving it a more community feel .
I'd love it to be down freemo / docks area but can't see it baring a miracle or two .

The houses were there before the ground which was moved from the Park Street area in 1899.

http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Widening-boundary/story-12732864-detail/story.html

Sorry that's wrong. They moved form Clee Park to Abbey Park in 1889, then onto BP in 1899.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Back in the real world, how long do you think it would take to get the CPOs to buy all the properties they would need to demolish on the East Marsh and removals of Listed building statuses etc on the Docks. I'm not known for my support for John Fenty but I'm right behind him on this one. Of course it would be great to re-invigorate depressed areas of the town but let's be a little bit more realistic about what's involved.

Well the council are in a better position to judge on these things and it would be ridiculous for them to prefer a site with no chance of going ahead - I might be wrong but I thought this process was to decide the best site whilst also taking into account whether it was actually feasible.

Like you, I have very little confidence in the council, but I am only going by what they are now saying. If they lead us up a blind alley then we will all be very miffed to say the least. I personally don't think we will see a new stadium anywhere, but we will see what transpires in the new year.

Yes and when the independent review by experts took place it rated freemo joint LAST on suitability/viability - the council added it to the shortlist anyway. As others have said this seems very odd, perhaps some influential people on the council wish to attempt to drive the freemo site to help with regeneration regardless of whether it's suitable or viable (due to the issues mentioned above)

Are we anywhere nearer a new ground than we were 20 years ago?

Quoted from arryarryarry

Are we anywhere nearer a new ground than we were 20 years ago?

Got no plans drawn up, don't know where it can be built, don't know where the money to pay for it is coming from......so I would say no

Quoted from ginnywings

The houses were there before the ground which was moved from the Park Street area in 1899.

http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Widening-boundary/story-12732864-detail/story.html

I did a quick check in the Dowling book on the development of Cleethorpes, and it shows the area bordered by what is now the Osmond Stand down to Warneford Road, and Grimsby Road to the railway was undeveloped as late as 1906.

Bob Lincoln said that the club had the chance of buying enough land not only for the football ground, but also for a cricket pitch, tennis courts etc. The proposal from some directors was to acquire the lease for the whole area and do just that, but in what Lincoln called short-sightedness, the board voted to the just buy the lease for enough land for the football ground. If this was correct we would have been able to redevelop in the BP area.

KingstonMariner

Somebody will start blaming Fenty for that

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I did a quick check in the Dowling book on the development of Cleethorpes, and it shows the area bordered by what is now the Osmond Stand down to Warneford Road, and Grimsby Road to the railway was undeveloped as late as 1906.

Bob Lincoln said that the club had the chance of buying enough land not only for the football ground, but also for a cricket pitch, tennis courts etc. The proposal from some directors was to acquire the lease for the whole area and do just that, but in what Lincoln called short-sightedness, the board voted to the just buy the lease for enough land for the football ground. If this was correct we would have been able to redevelop in the BP area.

That's reflected in the house styles. Up to Manchester Street they are Victorian terraced but parts of Manchester Street, all of Warneford Road and Oliver Street, the houses are more Edwardian in style.

Quoted from Davec

KingstonMariner

Somebody will start blaming Fenty for that

Dam straight.

I blame Fenty for Mars slowing losing its atmosphere these last couple of million years.

Quoted from Rik e B

Dam straight.

I blame Fenty for Mars slowing losing its atmosphere these last couple of million years.

Used to be a cracking atmosphere there. Now it's dead but the Martians' away following is great - that "oh laa!" chant is awesome